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RE: Here I am again with career questions-Part II [7:119287] posted 04/12/2007
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-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of nrf
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:49 PM
To: cisco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Here I am again with career questions-Part II [7:119287]

""Guyler, Rik""  wrote in message 
> Huh???  NRF, I think you are missing my point here.  Every company is a
> startup at some time and every new type of technology has an infancy 
> period
> so even though Cisco was founded by inexperienced people at a time when
> networking (as we know it) was in its infancy, we haven't considered Cisco

> a
> startup for many years.  As one of the oldest networking companies around,
> they are the model to which all others are now compared.  I just don't
> understand how you can make this comparison.

NRF: Uh, I think you missed my point.  I make the comparison to illustrate
just how ironic it is that some people are here on a Cisco board bashing the

value of a degree when this board ITSELF wouldn't even exist if the 2 
founders had not decided to go to Stanford.

[Howard C. Berkowitz] 
This board, perhaps. That's one of the reasons I also read IETF, IRTF, and
NANOG lists for networking, as well as telecommunications policy, and as
security/privacy/relevant law. I'll comment on telecom and policy on some
political lists.

While I'm not sure I'm emotionally ready for M$ lists, I finally broke down
and am digging through Microsoft Windows Internals, 4th Edition (Mark E.
Russinovich].  Excellent writing, although it probably does assume some
knowledge of operating systems theory. I think it's already paid for itself
it in utilities of which I'm not going to buy a second copy, and where to
find some free tools that would have cost a chunk otherwise.

I hang out on some newsgroups including one for Robert A. Heinlein, who had
one of his characters say,
   A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Let's see. Well, with a full HAZMAT suit or at least scrubs, mask, and
gloves, I have changed diapers. Plan invasions? Yep. Butcher a hog?
Hmmm...pork roasts, and maybe some long pig in the pathology lab. Design a
building? Frame certainly. Sonnet? Better at SONET, but I have had the
poetry bug. Balance accounts most of the time. Build lumber and firewalls.
Set bones, check (one of the reasons I am on emergency medicine and trauma
mailing lists). Comfort the dying, yes. Take and give orders. Cooperate and
act alone. Solve equations (but prefer to program computers to do so).
Analyze problems, as well as the angle to pitch the manure into the compost
heap. Program computers. Excellent cook. Fight efficiently and plan fighting

Haven't yet had to die gallantly, but I haven't freaked out when I didn't
know if I was going to survive.

NRF> And more to the point, again, I would emphasize, even now that Cisco is
well established, how many employees at Cisco don't have degrees?   I can
tell you it's almost impossible to get a job as a full-time employee at
Cisco without one.  

[Howard C. Berkowitz] 
Quite possibly more in development engineering than, proportionately, in
sales and suppport. RFC writing and such often counts more than having a PhD
or not having a degree at all. Oh -- believe it or not, people with high and
no degrees manage to publish peer-reviewed academic quality research.

NRF>You might be able to get in as a contractor.  But as a 
full-time employee?  That's a tough row to hoe.  Most of Cisco's products 
are being developed by people with degrees.  Hence, if it's stupid for 
companies to place value on degrees, then wouldn't that mean that Cisco is 
stupid?  And furthermore, if you insist on implementing mission-critical 
from a company that is stupid, then what does that make you?

> NRF, I enjoy the passion in your debates but your arguments makes me think
> that you either don't have any time in the trenches or you just love 
> finding
> an argument in nearly anything.

Uh, no, I think that you and others simply don't appreciate where much of 
the world's technology actually comes from.  The Internet, for example, was 
a purely academic research project for much of the first decade of its 
existence - the first nodes being university nodes (Stanford, UCLA, UCSB, 
University of Utah).  

[Howard C. Berkowitz] 
Did you mean the ARPANET, or its predecessors? No government labs? While it
was before BGP, may I remind you of BBN's claim (it's not boasting when
you've done it) "AS1 and proud of it"? 

Of course, don't forget the production virtual circuit public networks that
preceded the commercial Internet.

NRF>The browser was developed by graduate student 
researchers at the University of Illinois.  Google started life as a 
Stanford research project.  The point is, much (probably most) of the 
popularity of networking today can be traced back to developments invented 
by university research.  I am quite sure that right now, some university 
research projects of today are going to eventually become the next great 
technological innovation that sweeps the world.
[Howard C. Berkowitz] 

Windows and the Mac, I trust, are sweeping the floor, not the world?

NRF> What I find interesting is that so many people on this newsgroup who
have their livelihoods depend on technology don't seem to know or care where
this technoogy actually comes from.  Shouldn't you care?   Your jobs
wouldn't even exist were it not for university research.

[Howard C. Berkowitz] 
Right. Me not know. Himfella God bring one, two, three, many packet. Canoe
encapsulate like packet.

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