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Re: FW: Telecommunications vs internetworking [7:86571] posted 03/30/2004
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Don't confuse the framing, clock rate, and physical interface of a the
various circuits you describe with the disaster that is Avaya.

   I've watched Lucent/Avaya stuff the channel with barely functional
Yuri Systems AC120s and then take a bath when they got returned.

  I see multiple Cajun boxes standing idle due to the developers
inability to make OSPF behave while the Cisco boxes they were meant to
replace soldier on in their jobs years after they've been fully
depreciated. 

  I see an integrator in this town calling me in to 'fix' Avaya access
points. We go round and round with goofy, flaky software, and then the
Cisco solution gets pulled out of the box.

  I see N * hundred phone installs where the clueless Avaya reps are
pushing needless layer 3 services, then they back away and say 'You guys
better look at Cisco'. Their words, not mine, I must add.


  This is just my personal experience. I'm not Cisco-centric, all I want
is this:

box should stay up most of the time
box should stick to the standards
box should have an online tech support library
box should have an 800 number that leads to a technician WITH A CLUE
box should have a simple to understand and easy to obtain support
contract
box should have a telnet or ssh interface WITHOUT menus
box should have a similar management method to other products from the
company


  If someone else, MikroTik for example, provides this sort of stuff,
I'll tear off, install one for play, and put it in production if I think
the company is long term viable.



  I think it says a great deal about Avaya's long term viability when a
little Linux appliance company in Latvia provides better choices for
entry level routers and wireless access devices than a so called 'giant'
in the industry.








"Messel, David S (David)" wrote:
> 
> Really interesting and it says a lot about you that you have nothing good
to
> say about any Telecom provider...Lets see where would we be without say the
> T1, DS3, Frame Relay, ATM DSU/CSUs modems. Not to mention POTS only the
> biggest machine on the planet or around the planet as the case may be. And
> saying that Cisco's phone systems are homegrown is like trying to make a
> pinto sound like a good idea.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how Cisco-centric people can be. No matter how
> much they abuse us with proprietary this or that, not to mention
> over-charging for everything.
> 
> The next time you pick up your phone and dial 911 even if it is a Cisco IP
> phone keep in mind that somewhere it hits a circuit developed, provided,
and
> maintained by one of these telecom providers you don't give a rat's $%#@!
for.
> 
> Maybe then, when the ambulance pulls up maybe, just maybe, you will be a
> little more objective with your opinions.
> 
> Unethical behavior is bad regardless of what you believe about a company or
> product. Keep things objective and judge people, ideas, companies, and
> products based on their individual talents and merits.
> 
> Yours In Service
> David
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> neal rauhauser
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:39 PM
> To: cisco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Telecommunications vs internetworking [7:86571]
> 
> The relationship between telecommunications and internetworking is
> generally pretty poisonous. Telecommunications departments generally
> grew from in house phone switch management and mainframe connectivity
> guys, while internetworking departments grew from the original wildcat
> netware installers way back when.
> 
>   The two functions generally don't meet until the CIO level and they're
> often found sniping at each other. Telecom will handle phone systems and
> often has a strangle hold on circuit provisioning. The data guys do PCs,
> servers, routers, and the trouble really starts with VPN, VoIP, and the
> like, where the two groups are forced to interact.
> 
>   Vendors like AT&T/Lucent/Avaya/whatever they call themselves next,
> Nortel, etc are phone switch vendors that have grown into data by
> purchasing existing datacentric companies like Bay Networks and Ascend,
> then driving away the people at these acquisitions that knew how to pour
> piss out of a boot. One has to look no further than the yellow socks
> found on the typical Avaya/Nortel data yep to know this is a fundamental
> truth in the world today :-)
> 
>   Cisco is a datacentric company slowly growing into a phone system
> provider. They're the size they are because they are about the only
> large technology company out there that can do an acquisition and not
> make a mess out of it. The phone stuff they do seems to be mostly home
> grown and the recent Call Manager Express imagine /w NM & AIM support
> for voicemail is a step in the right direction - their horrid Windows
> based intial offerings really shook my confidence in them ...
> 
>   As Cisco becomes more competent with phones and AT&T+Nortel become
> less competent with data you can count on another decade of border wars
> along the telecom/data fault line.
> 
>   A very different spin than the other responses, but you did ask about
> the relationship between the two.
> 
> Lu wrote:
> >
> > These migh sound like silly questions, but nevertheless:
> >
> > What's the relationship between telecommunications and internetworking?
> > Is it possible for one to go without the other?
> > Where do you think Cisco fits is in each?
> >
> > Slightly confused...
> > Lu
> > **Please support GroupStudy by purchasing from the GroupStudy Store:
> > http://shop.groupstudy.com
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> 
> --
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> Cisco, Soekris, OpenBSD, or Amateur Radio? See my web page ...
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Cisco, Soekris, OpenBSD, or Amateur Radio? See my web page ...
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