GroupStudy.com GroupStudy.com - A virtual community of network engineers
 Home  BookStore  StudyNotes  Links  Archives  StudyRooms  HelpWanted  Discounts  Login
Re: contract or perm? posted 04/15/2008
[Chronological Index] [Thread Index] [Top] [Date Prev][Date Next] [Thread Prev][Thread Next]


I see. So in the States employers will basically suck your marrow dry and
shaft you when it suits them. I share bare that in mind next time a US
headhunter comes calling. They do.

Where does all this fit in with the 'American Dream' or does that have nothing
to do with working for a company fulltime these days?

By way of an example I saw some TV 8 years ago where hopefuls in Europe and in
India dreamed of working for 'Sun Microsystems'. I mean really that was their
whole aspiration in life.

I might add that 10 years ago I asked someone who worked for IBM if 'they had
made it' because they worked for IBM. They replied 'everyone says that, let me
tell you they treated us like dirt. We worked in a horrible tower block with
awful furnature and next to no heating..'I closed close to half a million
calls for IBM while I was working for them'..he said.



---- Original Message -----
  From: Dane Newman
  To: Gary Duncanson
  Cc: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Joseph Brunner
  Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 9:56 PM
  Subject: Re: contract or perm?


  Ah Gary,

  Forgive me the 1099 form is something unique to the USA

  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-1099-form.htm

  I am saying that while there might be some "good" companies out there the
majority of them will take advantage of you.  When you are full time they will
force you to work overtime without any form of compensation.  Back in the day
I can remember my grandfather telling me stories of how you worked at a single
company your whole life and at the end when you retire they give you a golden
watch to represent the time you spent there.

  Many people feel that a full time stable job is alot safer then working by
contract but I agree with Joseph that companies are no longer loyal at all to
there employees.  They will hire and fire you in a moments notice simply
because they need to show more profit every year.  In my world contracting and
keeping your skill set up to date and sharp is the safest job because you will
always be in demand.


  Btw thanks alot for the repost Joseph.


  On 4/15/08, Gary Duncanson <gary.duncanson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Dane Im afraid I don't know what 1099 means on this side of the pond.

    Are you basically saying working for a company fulltime in the US is a
road to nowhere these days?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dane Newman
      To: Gary Duncanson
      Cc: Joseph Brunner ; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 9:36 PM
      Subject: Re: contract or perm?


      Take your golden watch and shove it!

      Its not worth 50 years of my life.

      1099 > full time slavery


      On 4/15/08, Gary Duncanson <gary.duncanson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
        Joe,

        Are you basically saying anyone who is a hardworking loyal company man
in this day and age is a dork?

        I just want to check before I ever consider being a hardworking, loyal
company man again. Not that it will affect my decision but I will consider
it!

        I agree food is getting more expensive. Cultivate your garden!

        Regards
        Gary


        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Brunner"
<joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        To: <rodrigo.gutierrez@xxxxxxx>; <dane.newman@xxxxxxxxx>;
<gary.duncanson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        Cc: <ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 9:19 PM

        Subject: RE: contract or perm?



          There is no stability benefit to having a full time j.o.b..

          You can be let go at any time, for almost any reason, with no
severance pay.
          If broke my leg right now as a contractor, I still have 2 months (at
least)
          of invoices due in that have already been billed for work done.

          So my severance pay is cushioned in to my billing operations....
(try that
          on a full time basis).

          Many friends with children and wives I know left long time full time
jobs
          with 2 WEEKS of severance pay.

          Also it's about respect. We work in the private sector (most of us).
The
          only way to show an employee respect- is by how much MONEY you pay
them. All
          the parking, training, all that stuff can be offered in the
employer's best
          interest (tax write-offs, product purchase credits for training,
etc).  It
          aint getting any cheaper to live, that's for sure. So what good is
hope, if
          my kids want to eat milk and bread today?

          If you are working weekends and extra hours at night and not being
paid cash
          money every pay day, then you are a sucker. Want to come work for
me?
          I'll give you a Manhattan parking garage, catered lunch, and porno
dvd's,
          and a Mark Hamill autographed Lightsaber from 1983... You just keep
working
          nights and weekends for me for that flat salary.

          -Joe

          -----Original Message-----
          From: rodrigo.gutierrez@xxxxxxx [mailto:rodrigo.gutierrez@xxxxxxx]
          Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:06 PM
          To: dane.newman@xxxxxxxxx; gary.duncanson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Cc: joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Subject: RE: contract or perm?

          It also depends of the company you want to work for. The company I
work
          right now, contractors make more money daily but they have no
benefits,
          no training and are treated differently company wise(no parking, no
          insurance, etc). If you want to make more money go contract, if you
want
          to make carrier in a company you want to grow and eventually become
          manager or so go full time. Also you are suppose to have more
stability
          when u r full time employee(although now days same stuff).

          Regards,

          Rod






            -----Original Message-----
            From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
            Behalf Of ext Dane Newman
            Sent: Martes, 15 de Abril de 2008 02:55 p.m.
            To: Gary Duncanson
            Cc: Joseph Brunner; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
            Subject: Re: contract or perm?

            There is good and bad to both.  I have been contracting free
            lance now for about 6 months and would never go back.  As a
            perm employee I worked every weekend and till midnight more
            times then not and hated every unpaid min of it.  It seems the
            more you know and the better you are at your job the more they
            demand of you.  I would never ever go back to full time
employement.


            Heres a question for Joseph I know you mentioned cheap way for
            health insurance what was that for New Yorkers again?

            Dane


            On 4/15/08, Gary Duncanson <gary.duncanson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


              The permy also gets holiday pay, sick pay and the *potential*
of
              career progression. Don't forget that. It's important as the

            metric in

              terms of earnings between permy and contractor contract.

              Personally Im paid by the hour yes, but I do not stop the

            clock nor do

              I bill for overruns..unless they are exceptionally long.

              Contract or permy..the infrastructure needs defending. Having
come
              through support earning stripes through the years before joining
the
              designer 'officer ranks' I understand that.

              As for police, and fire..well I don't think that's a fair
comparison
              at all. Confront the situations those guys have to deal with
Joe, I
              think you would shit your pants buddy and forget your hourly
rate.
              ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Brunner" <
              joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
              To: "'Gary Duncanson'" <gary.duncanson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <
              ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:14 PM
              Subject: RE: contract or perm?


              All that matters is that you are paid BY THE HOUR...
              >
              > If you work for a full-time job you have to work weekends,
nights
              > and other "maintenance periods" for FREE!
              >
              > The hourly employee gets the bets of both worlds... weekdays
to
              > attend meetings, do designs, discuss the plan, and

            weekends to keep

              > the clock ticking at a nice hourly rate!
              >
              > Do not short your family or yourself! Police, fire, and civil
              > service often are paid by the hour- aren't you worth it?
              >
              > -Joe
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

            On Behalf

              > Of Gary Duncanson
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 1:42 PM
              > To: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
              > Subject: contract or perm?
              >
              > Group,
              >
              > I realise that this could potentially turn into a difficult
thread
              > but I think those with emotional intelligence will prevent
that!
              >
              > I wonder if folks could post the benefits of being

            contract or permy

              > these days in terms of cisco network/engineer/designer
employment.
              >
              > Things have changed..
              >
              > In 1997 companies charged $2000 dollars a day (per technician)
for
              > Joe's idiot son to install Windows 95 according to the idiots
              > instructions to move from Novell to NT..*sigh*
              >
              > *caveat* the drive mappings didn't work, nor the printing!
              >
              > *further caveat* Apologies in advance to Joe's mom,
              >
              > I'm sure she's a nice lady who makes great gumbo!
              >
              > It's a different landscape these days but how are you doing?
              >
              >
              > Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
              > http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
              >

            _________________________________________________________________
___

              > ___ Subscription information may be found at:
              > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
              >
              >
              > Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
              > http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
              >

            _________________________________________________________________
___

              > ___ Subscription information may be found at:
              > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
              >


              Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
              http://www.certscience.com/CCIE


            _________________________________________________________________
_____

              _ Subscription information may be found at:
              http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html



            Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
            http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
            _________________________________________________________________
______
            Subscription information may be found at:
            http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html



          Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
          http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
          ___________________________________________________________________
____
          Subscription information may be found at:
          http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html



        Pass the CCIE in six weeks, Guaranteed!
        http://www.certscience.com/CCIE
        _____________________________________________________________________
__
        Subscription information may be found at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html