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RE: Virtual CCIE's? posted 08/21/2007
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Just want to weigh in here. 

I agree with your point about comparing an MCSE to a CCIE is not valid.
It is more akin to a CCNP. I have both certifications, and am working on
the CCIE. I can honestly say that it is no harder to get a CCNP than it
is to get an MCSE. I did think the CCNA was a challenge, perhaps even
harder than any of the CCNP individual tests. I have been dual certified
for the better part of 10 years, and was one of the original MCSE's. The
MCSE 4 (NT era) wasn't terribly difficult, but that has changed. I
thought that the 2003 certification was even harder than the CCNP. There
were a bunch of paper MCSE's, but this is more or less not the case
anymore. To truly understand the Microsoft operating systems is very
challenging. There is much more to it than most people realize. The CCIE
is a whole different level altogether though. Microsoft has a
certification that is akin to CCIE, it is called MCA (Microsoft
Certified Architect). I don't know much more about it than you are
subject to peer review and inquiry to get the certification.

To your point about very bright people not passing the CCNA, I think
there is a really simple explanation for that. Just because you are
smart, doesn't necessarily mean you have a specific aptitude. We are all
gifted in different ways, and for some, our gifts enable us to better
understand some things that people much smarter than us are not able to
comprehend. It doesn't make us smarter than them, or them not as smart
as us. It is simply an aptitude that you may not have.

One additional comment about networking in general. In my opinion, there
are a great many people that work in this field that really have very
little foundation understanding of how a network works. They know what
Ethernet is, and the definition of a packet, but they really don't
understand how it works. Ever ask someone what the maximum throughput is
on a 100 MBS Ethernet connection? To really know that you need to
understand some basic concepts about how Ethernet works. Most people
don't ever bother to learn that and think that the throughput is
actually 100 MBS. 

I say all that to point out that for a high school kid, no matter how
smart, to understand the science behind a network is a monumental task.
It was just 13 years (or less) ago they were learning how to read and
write. They don't have the historical perspective nor the time to learn
the science unless they are totally committed to it. That makes
understanding the concepts of networking an even bigger challenge, so I
am not surprised that they find it tough to pass the CCNA. Couple that
with the fact that they have probably never really been tested in this
manner, and the CCNA test would be a formidable opponent.

My thoughts for what they are worth...


-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Joseph Brunner
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:47 PM
To: 'Gregory Gombas'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Virtual CCIE's?

Whoa, wait a minute Keanu, there is a spoon!

The spoon is the real world application to that intelligence that either
learned with dynamips or a CSR-1 running IOS-XR is real and serious...

There will not be an "ARMY" of paper soldiers carrying the CCIE olive
logo on their uniforms. The brain power required to "spot the issues"
"verify your tasks" is light years beyond the MCSE TESKING

Have you researched the MCA? Even Microsoft has realized the MCSE's
and has now created a real certification worthy of a professional. I
tell my
CCNA students that if they have an MCSE, it was a walk in the park... 

Think you can get into Wharton UPENN today? Think I can? My brother's
is going there free, that's right, gratis. He failed his CCNA! He got
a perfect SAT score, 5 on all his AP exams. Finished college level
in 10th grade, etc. He was not even the valedictorian at the school.
kid is going to Princeton. He also failed his CCNA! Cisco is given in
schools now, it seems ;( (I did and love woodshop!)

Cisco requires you change your mind, your thinking skills, your problem
solving at many levels. You memory, reactions to stress, and time will
be challenged. Your seemingly invincible logic will be reversed. Think
can route IPV6, develop qos policies, configure multicast, and BGP?
you can do it in a room for 8 hours with a clock, fatigue, and a dozen
people, and freezing cold air conditioning racing against you, breaking

Comparing the MCSE to the CCIE is like comparing a boy scout who climbed
Bear mountain to a Sherpa who RAN up Everest in 17 hours with no oxygen
(google it). Why do you think with 100,000s of network engineers in the
world engineers there are less than 15,000 CCIE's??? You must commit to
being the best long enough to get there. That is a challenge in many
most can't and will not do.


-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Gregory Gombas
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:19 PM
To: Cisco certification
Subject: Virtual CCIE's?


I was checking out Dynamips and its pretty cool and all, but it does
worry me a little bit....

How will employers view the CCIE certification after they've been
burned by hiring a CCIE who has never touched a real router in their

Do you like the idea of a pilot flying your plane whose only training
was with a virtual flight simulator?

I remember the days when the MCSE was a hot cert until an army of
paper CCIE's hit the job market.

Maybe they won't call it a paper CCIE, maybe they'll coin a new term
like virtual CCIE.

Just food for thought...

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