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RE: Contract Position in Los Angeles area posted 08/20/2007
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The recruiter marketplace is as competitive as ours if not more so.  There
are several different pay structures for recruiters but most seem to be paid
a commision on a contract rate.  The less the contractor makes, the more
profit the agency makes, the more commission the recruiter gets.  Sometimes
the agencies will bid the rate to the client as low as possible so that they
can get the business to begin with.  The way to handle lo-ball rates like
the one that started this thread is to take note of the recruiter and the
agency they represent and then black-list them.  Don't return their calls.
Don't reply to their emails.  Eventually they will wind up in a line of work
that suits them better and the rates the contractors get will increase as
the recruiter marketplace becomes less competitive.  

About rate negotiation in general.  If the the recruiter can't visit with
you on the phone for 10 minutes without asking how much money you have to
have then that is a very bad sign.  If this happens then I recommend that
you politely end the call without answering their question and don't have
anything more to do with the agency or the recuiter.  From my experience,
the less time that lapses from the beginning of the call till they bring up
money, then the lower the rate they are willing to pay.  My best rates have
always come from calls where the recuiter and I talk for at least 15-30
minutes before the issue of rates comes up.  And I never bring up $ myself.



-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Darby Weaver
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 4:20 AM
To: Brant I. Stevens; Scott Vermillion; Narbik Kocharians
Cc: Craig Tompkins; Joseph Brunner; Andrew Shin; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
Larry Letterman (lletterm); Darby Weaver
Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles area

Hmmm...

Seems to me that the only one who wins through silence of such matters is
the H.R. Department...

And maybe employment agencies.

If everyone knew what the salary rates really were then it might not really
be a bad thing for the employed.

If there's one thing I've seen over the years that holds true it seems to me
that you tend to earn what you ask for.

Example if you make $20,000.00 per year then it would be impossible for you
to make $100,000.00 per year.

In fact, I recall seeing something to the effect (maybe verbatim), that an
H.R. manager would NOT grant someone say a $10,000.00 bump since that would
constitute an "undeserved" raise...

vs.

Say a $5,000.00 bump that to the H.R. manager would seem more reasonable.

Never mind the fact that the job may pay 10-30k more than the person was
making to begin with.

It also seems to me that this mentality is the norm in the industry,
especially our industry.


A given H.R. department would prefer to perform a "salary review" and base
an employee's salary on the prevailing wage or average (or not in some
cases)...  


rather than legitimately figure out what a specific job role is actually
worth to a gicen company in terms of revenue.


Example, I once saw a certain person's resume here applying for a job
somewhere and I'd swear I'd think a certain Cisco employee would have been
worth far more money than what I saw that person applying for...

However, it is what it is, even it happened to be in California.

There seems to be a prevailing myth that employees in California or New York
earn a ton more money than employees doing similar or in our case the same
job in places like the lazy south - example I live in Orlando.

This may be what people want to believe.  Not quite as true as some may like
to believe.

While I have met CCNP's from the Silicon Valley and other places earning
$110k and so...

Most other times...

I have seen the same 90k CCNP in California having to buy that $500-700k
house with what amounts to $200k equity and an interest only loan.

In Orlando, the 90-110k CCNP can still afford to buy a $400-500k house on a
30-year loan.

Hmmm...

Working for companies that employee people in all three areas and more, even
internationally and having a chance to compare and contrast such things...

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Now the funny thing is I can still go back to the deep south "Mobile, New
Orleans, and other places" and earn a decent income and buy a $100-200k
house and live ok.
 And for 300k+, I'm buying in some areas what equates to a mansion with
acreage.  

Nope silence and ignorance only benefits an employer at least in my
experience.

Example - if you are asked what you are earning - Why would you answer this?

Would you retort the same question to the H.R. person?
 Would they answer you?  Probably not.

If you are too high, then you are excluded.

If you are too low, you are either excluded or worse you are hired at a
lower rate than you could be earning.

Hmmm..

The one who speaks first loses.

How about asking for the salary range - places that are not trying to "beat
you" will openly tell you the range of the position.  Those who have
something to gain or are trying to "beat you" typically will not, while
there may be exceptions, they will be few.

Do recruiters get a bonus for bringing in talent for $10k less...?

Hmmm...

Recently I spoke to a recruiter and was told that we networking and systems
types were a commodity, common, and typically "a dime a dozen" basically
referring to the fact that we were easy to find and recruit.

Hmmm...  ERP tpyes are harder to find, more difficult to fill, and more
expensive to hire - $100k+ to start even with the lowliest of skills.

The funny thing is that on this list, one of the more technical lists on the
net...

Many probably still earn from $40-75k, if I had to guess and even a modest
90-110k might seem very nice to a good many on this list, even a number of
CCIE's.

Still wanna keep secrets?

There are the exceptions - the CCNP's in the post 110k bracket by luck or
skill.

The CCIE's in the post $150k bracket.

The pre-sales types making more money than some presidents.

I guess we can still be dumb and dumber...






--- "Brant I. Stevens" <branto@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Am I the only one who thinks it is in rather poor taste to be talking 
> about one's income in such an open forum?  Speaking of one's salary 
> with others within an organization, especially financials, can lead to 
> dismissal should management and/or HR be aware.  With all the stories 
> of people losing jobs because of their Myspace activity, it just 
> doesn't strike me as a very wise thing to do.
> 
> Never mind that Google will archive these messages in perpetuity...  
> Any potential FUTURE employer can, and usually will, Google 
> candidates.
> 
> -Brant
> 
> 
> On 8/18/07 1:24 AM, "Scott Vermillion"
> <scott_ccie_list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> > Ah, now it all makes sense!  I think both Joe and
> I were looking at that
> > "consultancy" bit and thinking ?????  When I see
> that, I'm thinking raw
> > rate paid for services rendered, and in that case,
> you have to look at
> > all of the business overhead expenses that Joe
> initially mentioned.  No
> > way to think of doing that in a major metro area
> (esp expensive LA) for
> > $45US/hr! 
> > 
> >   -------- Original Message --------
> >   Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> area
> >   From: "Narbik Kocharians" <narbikk@xxxxxxxxx>
> >   Date: Fri, August 17, 2007 7:14 pm
> >   To: "Darby Weaver" <darbyweaver@xxxxxxxxx>
> >   Cc: "Scott Vermillion"
> <scott_ccie_list@xxxxxxxxx>, "Craig Tompkins"
> >   <sidalo@xxxxxxxxx>, "Joseph Brunner"
> <joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> >   "Andrew Shin" <mr.dude@xxxxxxxxx>,
> ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Larry
> >   Letterman (lletterm)" <lletterm@xxxxxxxxx>
> > 
> >   Joseph,
> > 
> >   Thanks for your kind worlds, but the range that
> i mentioned was not
> >   for me, this range is typical when you go
> through an agency, if you
> >   want to do it on your own, then the hourly rate
> changes drastically.
> > 
> >   I have been in this industry for the past 30
> years and i have not
> >   worked for a firm for the last 12 + years, not
> that its bad, but i
> >   just have not. 
> > 
> >   If you have your own consulting firm and you are
> not going through an
> >   agency, you could charge a lot more depending on
> the contract.
> > 
> >   But if some one just got their CCIE and they are
> consulting for an
> >   agency, and they have about 4 - 5 years of
> exper. they would probably
> >   make around 100K.
> > 
> >   Remember that the houses in LA are expensive,
> but not everyone lives
> >   in an expensive house, you guys are blessed to
> pay 400 b 500K for a
> >   house and get a 4 b 5 bedrooms, here in LA,
> with that money
> >   (Depending where you live) it should be a good
> down payment for a 3
> >   bed + 2 bath house or may be for a 2 bedroom
> condo.
> > 
> >   But remember that its great to leave LA, but it
> will very hard to
> >   come back.
> > 
> >   On 8/17/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > 
> >     Wow!!!
> > 
> >     Joseph, those are pretty strong words.  Did it
> sound
> >     like the person was addressing you personally?
> > 
> >     I can think of plenty CCNP's who might like to
> take a
> >     position like that - it won't get one rich but
> man...
> > 
> >     That was a pretty decent sized flame.
> > 
> >     --- Narbik Kocharians < narbikk@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> What do CCIEs with few years of exper. make?
> >> 
> >> On 8/17/07, Scott Vermillion
> >> <scott_ccie_list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> No wonder so many California big city types have
> >> been showing up here in
> >>> CO!!  With a CCNP/CCDP it's possible to earn a
> W2
> >> hourly wage within the
> >>> range you're talking about below (definitely
> >> towards the lower end of that
> >>> range, but within that range nonetheless)...
> >>> 
> >>> -------- Original Message --------
> >>> Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> area
> >>> From: "Narbik Kocharians" <narbikk@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Date: Fri, August 17, 2007 3:51 pm
> >>> To: "Larry Letterman (lletterm)"
> >> <lletterm@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Cc: "Craig Tompkins" <sidalo@xxxxxxxxx>,
> "Joseph
> >> Brunner"
> >>> < joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,  "Andrew Shin"
> >> <mr.dude@xxxxxxxxx>,
> >>> ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> 
> >>> I live in LA and the hourly rate for a CCIE for
> a
> >> long term contract is
> >>> anywhere from 45 - 100 per hour. 100 per hour
> >> requires lots of experiance.
> >>> 
> >>> On 8/17/07, Larry Letterman (lletterm)
> >> 
> >     <lletterm**@cisco.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> Go check house prices in LA then..
> >>>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From:
> >> 
> >     nobody**@groupstudy.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>[mailto:
> >>> 
> >> ;
> >     nobody**@groupstudy.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>]
> >>> On Behalf Of
> >>>> Narbik Kocharians
> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 3:20 PM
> >>>> To: Craig Tompkins
> >>>> Cc: Joseph Brunner; Andrew Shin;
> >> 
> >     ccielab**@groupstudy.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> >> area
> >>>> 
> >>>> This is NOT a bad pay for a NP or even a CCIE
> >> that just starting with
> >>>> very little exp.
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 8/17/07, Craig Tompkins
> >> 
> >     <sidalo**@gmail.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Joe,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Is this hostility leftover from your 8th
> >> attempt?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> The base pay yes is 50 x 2080 = 104,000 yearly
> >> assuming no overtime.
> >>>>> Yes you are right that after providing their
> >> own insurance, that the
> >>>>> position paying that amount on a contracting
> >> basis in the LA area is a
> >>>> 
> >>>>> little low. You could have pointed this out,
> >> hile being a little more
> >>>> 
> >>>>> respectful and professional.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Craig Tompkins
> >>>>> CCIE #16921
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On 8/17/07, Joseph Brunner
> >> 
> >     
> >
>
<joe**@affirmedsystems.com<http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPa
rt
> > =0&type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=22#Compose
> >>> 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Sorry, but $50 an hour is hardly $100k per
> >> year... and from that you
> >>>>> want
> >>>>>> me
> >>>>>> to buy
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> -business liability insurance
> >>>>>> -business errors & omissions insurance
> >> (usually required to get the
> >>>>> first)
> >>>>>> -the employers 7.2% share of social security
> >> (on the first $97,000)
> >>>>>> -my own health insurance -contribute to my
> >> own 401k.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I don't say this lightly, but go $#ck
> >> yourself. Do you think anyone
> >>>>>> any good is going to do that job for about
> >> $60k a year?
> >>>>>> < BR>> > > > > -Joe
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From:
> >> 
> >     
> >
>
nobody**@groupstudy.com<http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=
0&
> > type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=22#Compose
> >> [mailto:
> >>> 
> >> 
> >     nobody**@groupstudy.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>]
> >>> On Behalf
> >>>> 
> >>>>>> Of Andrew Shin
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 2:36 PM
> >>>>>> To:
> >> 
> >     ccielab**@groupstudy.com<
> >     
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=I
NB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>
> >>>>>> Subject: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> >> area
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Hi all, I'm forwarding this for a friend.
> >> I'll also post this on
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>> job
> >>>>>> board, but I'm not sure how many people
> >> ch eck that.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 1+ year local contract (hourly consultancy
> >> 50/hr range) in the Los
> >>>>> Angeles
> >>>>>> area (South Bay)
> >>>>>> It's with a well established and well known
> >> global company and has
> >>>>>> the likelihood of extending for a long time.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Network Engineer
> >>>>>> Mid to Senior level NW Engineer who has
> >> large corporate NW
> >>>>>> engineering experience.
> >>>>>> WAN/LAN, VOIP.
> >>>>>> 7-10 years of NW Engineering experience
> >> Experience working within an
> >>>> 
> >>>>>> environment that is comprised of Unix,
> >> Windows, and Mainframe (need
> >>>>>> to have worked with all three environments)
> >> Experience providing
> >>>>>> proof of concept and presenting design and
> >> recommendations to team
> >>>>>> members and management.
> >>>>>> Provide 3rd level support.
> >>>>>> Experience with Cisco 2600-7200 routers and
> >> Cisco 350 switches. E
> >>>>>> Experience with Firewall, PIX, VPN 3000
> >> Concentrator, ATM, and video
> >>>> 
> >>>>>> conferencing.
> >>>>>> Professional with good communication
> >> abilities
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Please contact
> >> 
> >    
> matthew.chontos**@ispace.com<http://email.secur
> >     
> >
>
eserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=22#Compos
e
> >> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >> 
> >    
>
____________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> ___ Subscription information may be found
> >> at:
> >>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >> 
> >    
>
____________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> ___ Subscription information may be found
> >> at:
> >>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >> 
> >    
>
______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>> _ Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> Narbik Kocharians
> >>>> CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >>>> CCSI# 30832
> >>>> www.Net-WorkBooks.com
> >> <http://www.net-workbooks.com/>
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >> 
> >    
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> >>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> Narbik Kocharians
> >>> CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >>> CCSI# 30832
> >>> www.Net-WorkBooks.com
> >> <http://www.net-workbooks.com/>
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >    
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> >>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Narbik Kocharians
> >> CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >> CCSI# 30832
> >> www.Net-WorkBooks.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >    
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >> 
> > 
> >   --
> >   Narbik Kocharians
> >   CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> >   CCSI# 30832
> >   www.Net-WorkBooks.com
> > 
> >
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html

_______________________________________________________________________
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http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html


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