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RE: OT: bootcamps posted 09/03/2004
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  You guys just won't quit - will you?  24 IE's in a year?.....That's not the # we have, of
course - it's the # you'd like this list - or potential clients to believe.  

  I'll tell you what Brian, I'm going to back out of this thread and conversation.  I know
when my time is wasted.  I've proven my point - several times!  Have a great weekend!


-----Original message-----
From: "Brian Dennis" bdennis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri,  3 Sep 2004 18:42:19 -0400
To: "Wayne Lawson" groupstudy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: OT: bootcamps

> Wayne,
> 	That must mean your numbers are dropping since you only have 24
> CCIE's in the last year or so.  Why are your numbers dropping, increased
> competition?  ;-)  I guess you're right, it is all in the way you look
> at it. ;-)
> 
> Brian Dennis, CCIE #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security) 
> bdennis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> 
> Internetwork Expert, Inc. 
> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com 
> Toll Free: 877-224-8987 
> Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and Canada) 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Wayne Lawson
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 3:28 PM
> To: Brian McGahan; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: OT: bootcamps
> 
> Brian,
> 
>   Well, actually - if you want to get technical - and use the Website as
> validation....
> 
>   We've certified 203 IE's in 3 years (not 5) - Oh, and we'll be adding
> 2 more this weekend.  Our "Yearly Average" is 68 per year.
> 
>   You - Internetwork Expert have certified 64 (listed on your site) - in
> a little over 1 year,
> which means you certify (ON THE AVERAGE) 4 LESS CCIE's per year than us.
> ;-)
> 
>   It's all in the way you look at it.....-grin-
>  
> 
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Brian McGahan" bmcgahan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Fri,  3 Sep 2004 18:12:10 -0400
> To: "Wayne Lawson" groupstudy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: OT: bootcamps
> 
> > Hi Wayne,
> > 
> > 	No problem, I don't mind you questioning my integrity in public.
> > To clarify, I said "Internetwork Expert certifies more CCIEs than any
> > other vendor on the market", referring to present tense.  As you know,
> > Brian Dennis and I have only been working on our collective efforts as
> > Internetwork Expert for just one year now, so it does make sense that
> > you should have collected more CCIEs in five years as we have in just
> > one.
> > 
> > 	However, as related to "certifies" (present tense), the proof is
> > clearly in the numbers.  If you look at the list on
> > http://www.internetworkexpert.com/ you will clearly see that as of
> today
> > there are 61 names listed with CCIE numbers over the 13000.  While the
> > list on https://www.ipexpert.net/success/default.asp lists 24 names
> with
> > CCIE numbers over 13000.  
> > 
> > 	Wow, that's almost three times as much isn't it? ;)
> > 
> > Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593
> > bmcgahan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > 
> > Internetwork Expert, Inc.
> > http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
> > Toll Free: 877-224-8987 x 705
> > Outside US: 775-826-4344 x 705
> > 24/7 Support: http://forum.internetworkexpert.com
> > Live Chat: http://www.internetworkexpert.com/chat/
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> > Of
> > > Wayne Lawson
> > > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 4:23 PM
> > > To: Brian McGahan; john matijevic; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OT: bootcamps
> > > 
> > > Brian,
> > > 
> > >   I would have to agree with almost everything you say except,
> > > 
> > >   "Apparently this "hard work" approach works, as Internetwork
> Expert
> > > certifies
> > > more CCIEs than any other vendor on the market."
> > > 
> > >   How can you justify this statement?  The IE success story list is
> > much
> > > shorter than
> > > the NMC list, NLI's list and our (IPexpert) list....Care to explain
> > this
> > > one, and back it
> > > up, or is this another false statement you and your partner are
> > attempting
> > > to pass
> > > off to members of this list?  Sorry for "publicly" questioning your
> > > honesty and accuracy
> > > here, but this one just doesn't make sense.....
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: "Brian McGahan" bmcgahan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Date: Fri,  3 Sep 2004 17:07:01 -0400
> > > To: "john matijevic" matijevi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: OT: bootcamps
> > > 
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > 	Now that you are an "instructor", I'm honestly surprised to see
> > > > that you think that pass rate of previous students will affect the
> > > > success of future ones.  I have been in the CCIE training industry
> > for a
> > > > number of years now, and have seen many methods (some more
> > successful
> > > > than others) of preparation.  From my experience the one thing I
> can
> > > > tell you for sure is that it's very naive of a student,
> instructor,
> > > > training company, or whoever to think that there is a foolproof
> > solution
> > > > to passing the CCIE lab exam.
> > > >
> > > > 	At Internetwork Expert we never have, and never will, advertise
> > > > a passing rate, or even dream of giving a guarantee that you will
> > pass
> > > > the exam after going through our program.  As it clearly states on
> > our
> > > > website:
> > > >
> > > > "Passing the CCIE lab requires a culmination of hands on real
> world
> > > > experience, countless hours of self study, instructor-led
> training,
> > and
> > > > unrelenting determination. Despite what some companies may have
> you
> > > > believe there is no magic product out there that will make you
> pass
> > the
> > > > CCIE lab.  If what you are looking for is an easy way out to
> passing
> > the
> > > > CCIE lab exam IEWB-RS [our workbook] is not for you."
> > > >
> > > > 	What we at Internetwork Expert offer are simply tools for
> > > > candidates to use as stepping stones in their preparation to get
> > their
> > > > level of knowledge to the point that they will pass the exam.  In
> > other
> > > > words, if the student devotes the time to learning and
> understanding
> > the
> > > > technologies as expressed in our products, passing the CCIE lab
> exam
> > > > will come naturally.  Apparently this "hard work" approach works,
> as
> > > > Internetwork Expert certifies more CCIEs than any other vendor on
> > the
> > > > market.
> > > >
> > > > 	For example, the class that you attended with us, Internetwork
> > > > Expert's CCIE Routing & Switching Mock Lab Workshop (IEW-RS), is
> > > > advertised as being "...designed for students to solidify their
> > existing
> > > > knowledge, expose weaknesses, and fully prepare them as they lead
> up
> > to
> > > > their CCIE R&S Lab Exam date. Students successfully completing
> this
> > > > course will be fully prepared for the CCIE Lab Exam."  The key
> words
> > in
> > > > this description are "existing knowledge" and "successfully
> > completing
> > > > this course".  In your case, both Brian Dennis and I explained to
> > you at
> > > > the end of the week in a very nice way that you were not in fact
> > ready
> > > > to take the lab exam.  Subsequently, you took and failed the lab
> > exam
> > > > the following week.
> > > >
> > > > 	As an instructor it is not my job to placate students into
> > > > thinking that they understand a certain technology, or are ready
> for
> > the
> > > > lab exam.  By this accord, why would I falsely advertise a 100%
> > passing
> > > > rate, or guarantee that you will pass the exam, when in reality
> the
> > > > majority of candidates I see are in fact NOT sufficiently prepared
> > for
> > > > the exam.  If they were then why would the failure rate of the
> exam
> > be
> > > > so high? (roughly 75% of exam attempts result in failure).  In
> > previous
> > > > cases I have seen institutes where they did in fact falsely
> > advertise a
> > > > 100% passing rate, and guaranteed passing of the exam.  Needless
> to
> > say
> > > > this institute lost a LOT of money when it was SUED by many
> previous
> > > > students on the premise of false advertising, after they
> > subsequently
> > > > failed the exam.  If you think that ANY class can teach you all
> the
> > > > technologies needed to pass the lab exam in five days, you are
> sadly
> > > > mistaken.
> > > >
> > > > 	I also have to question your notion that since you "have very
> > > > current CCIE only 3 months, and I took exam so many times, that I
> > have
> > > > very good idea of what exam is about. I don't waste your time
> > studying
> > > > material that won't be tested on".  In other words what you're
> > saying is
> > > > don't bother sorting through all those CONCEPTS, let's just go
> over
> > the
> > > > questions that are on the actual exam.  Well I have news for you
> > John,
> > > > I've worked with many candidates have had DETAILED braindumps of
> the
> > > > actual exam they took, and still failed.  You know why?  Because
> > they
> > > > still don't understand the technology.  All they learned is how to
> > > > mindlessly put a configuration in, not unlike yourself from doing
> > "over
> > > > 200 labs" as you so often tout on the list.
> > > >
> > > > 	Next, I'd like to address your claim that since some instructors
> > > > "got their ccie years ago" they are obsolete.  Two individuals
> come
> > to
> > > > mind when you mentioned this.  You guessed it, Brian Dennis (CCIE
> > #2210)
> > > > and Scott Morris (CCIE #4713).  Brian Dennis is *THE* most
> brilliant
> > > > engineer I have ever met.  Having his CCIE for nearly 10 years
> now,
> > he
> > > > has passed three CCIE lab exams in less attempts than it took you
> to
> > > > achieve your one.  Scott Morris is one of the select few engineers
> > in
> > > > the world who has *FOUR* CCIEs.  Sorry John, but your level of
> > knowledge
> > > > pales in comparison to either of these individuals.
> > > >
> > > > 	In conclusion John, I would suggest that you stop replying to
> > > > every post on the list with "oh yeah I used that product and it
> > sucked,
> > > > but BTW you can attend my class via MSN messenger for a fraction
> of
> > the
> > > > cost!"  I for one am sick of all your negative comments and
> personal
> > > > attacks, as I'm sure many other people on this list are.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593
> > > > bmcgahan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > Internetwork Expert, Inc.
> > > > http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
> > > > Toll Free: 877-224-8987 x 705
> > > > Outside US: 775-826-4344 x 705
> > > > 24/7 Support: http://forum.internetworkexpert.com
> > > > Live Chat: http://www.internetworkexpert.com/chat/
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > john matijevic
> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:57 PM
> > > > > To: 'Joseph D. Phillips'; 'Eric Hoffman'
> > > > > Cc: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE # 13843
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Eric,
> > > > > Congratulations for passing the exam even though it took you 6
> > times.
> > > > I
> > > > > had to take the exam 5 times to pass. I had a similar experience
> > to
> > > > you
> > > > > I had purchased several workbooks, but I attended more than 1
> boot
> > > > camp.
> > > > > I attended Netmaster and Internetworkexpert mock lab workshop as
> > well
> > > > as
> > > > > the IPexpert audio boot camp. Even though I did not attend
> > > > Cyscoexpert,
> > > > > I did research them and felt that they were really overcharging.
> > And
> > > > > that they gave some students different prices than others, I
> don't
> > > > think
> > > > > that is fair to do to customers. Also the big problem is with
> the
> > boot
> > > > > camps, is that they don't tell you what there passing rate is.
> > This to
> > > > > me is very important factor, I want to know how many people pass
> > after
> > > > > attending the boot camp. It is a shame that you have to fail so
> > many
> > > > > times in order to pass like I did. I really can sympathize, the
> > > > problem
> > > > > with many of the boot camps out there and the workbook vendors
> is
> > that
> > > > > they made there boot camp courses or workbooks years ago, and
> they
> > got
> > > > > their ccie years ago(look at their CCIE numbers), so they try
> and
> > > > update
> > > > > their workbooks but the problem is that the original topologies,
> > tasks
> > > > > etc, are still left over. Yes I purchased IPexpert as well,
> again
> > my
> > > > > feelings are that those labs were originated years ago, and they
> > did
> > > > not
> > > > > completely rewrite the entire book, even though they have now
> > proctor
> > > > > guide and have several new labs. I am very proud to start my
> > course,
> > > > > because I have very current CCIE only 3 months, and I took exam
> so
> > > > many
> > > > > times, that I have very good idea of what exam is about. I don't
> > waste
> > > > > your time studying material that won't be tested on, and more
> > > > > importantly I am not going to overcharge you, like some of the
> > other
> > > > > boot camps. Good Luck in your career endeavors as well!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > > John Matijevic, CCIE #13254, MCSE, CNE, CCEA
> > > > > CEO
> > > > > IgorTek Inc.
> > > > > 151 Crandon Blvd. #402
> > > > > Key Biscayne, FL 33149
> > > > > Hablo Espanol
> > > > > 305-321-6232
> > > > > http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-CCIE
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > Joseph D. Phillips
> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:49 AM
> > > > > To: Eric Hoffman
> > > > > Cc: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE # 13843
> > > > >
> > > > > Very good. Congratulations, from a boob that's flunked 4x.  :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
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