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RE: NetMasterClass training posted 03/23/2004
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I wish I had time to write an email that long......................

-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
Thomas Larus
Sent: 23 March 2004 15:51
To: Jason Graun; 'Sam Meftahi'; 'Richard Dumoulin'; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R
(ASI)'; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: NetMasterClass training

Yes.  Jason is right.  You should have to prove that you have drawn a
paycheck for sufficient number of years in a job that clearly involves
network engineering before you can even take the CCIE Written Exam.  That
way someone who is paid to sit in front of a computer screen waiting for a
link to fail or a trouble ticket to arrive, and then calls TAC or a more
senior engineer, and types in exactly what TAC or the more senior engineer
tells him to type in, will be qualified to take the CCIE Written Exam.

And those pesky career-changers from law or accounting or other unrelated
fields, or lowly network technicians or desktop support folks who have never
configured a production router in a job will be kept from inflicting
themselves on the networks of the world.

Don't you just hate those people who have never earned the trust of a
discerning employer to configure a production router, but arrogantly decide

1) read 6000+ pages of Cisco Press books,

2) study several thousand pages of IOS documentation and CCO articles,

3) do over 600 hours of challenging hands-on lab scenarios

and THEN

4) attend a boot camp to learn some advanced lessons and see where they need
to do more work.

It is no surprise that after two years of pursuing this Lab Rat regimen some
of these Lab Rats slip through and snag a certification that they had no
business even studying for.  They Lab Rats are nothing but fakes, and cannot
begin to know what that guy who WAS PAID to watch a screen and type in
commands on a real router knows.  For one thing, they are just the kind of
fakes who will try to put a Cat 6500 blade into 7500 router, while the
experienced network engineer who has been watching the screen for many years
would NEVER make such a stupid mistake.  Because, of course, all people who
have held jobs with titles "network engineer" for several years, know the
ins and outs of all Cisco hardware and software, not to mention the details
of TCP, cabling, and so many other things.  Anyone who hold a job as a
network engineer will have all the basic networking skills that should be
acquired before one ever gets the job title of Network Engineer.  But you
never know with those Lab Rats.  For one thing, since they have not held a
networking job for years, they may not know how to cover their tracks or
shift blame when they make serious mistakes.   (I am not implying that all
seasoned network engineers make serious mistakes, but that being experienced
is not necessarily a guarantee that one will not make serious mistakes.)

To stop this fraud on the system, a CISSP-style experience requirement will
not be sufficient, as many people have slipped through that with too little
experience.  Now if they had simply paid their dues and worked as security
guards or "loss-prevention" consultants," at TJ Maxx for the correct number
of years, they would be deserving.

No.  We need laws to prevent irresponsible vendors and booksellers from
selling lab equipment or CCIE-related books to anyone who does not already
work in a network engineering position, or who cannot show proof that he or
she is a bona fide Cisco Academy student.  The Cisco Academy program is the
appropriate path for those who wish to break into the Cisco networking

Any CCIE who teaches in a CCIE bootcamp that lets in students who do not
already hold network engineering jobs should lose their CCIE status

All of the problems that we experience in our networks today are due to Lab
Rat CCIEs who, with no network engineering experience, are hired as Lead
Network Engineers at the largest enterprises in America, whose incompentent
managers hire Lab Rats based solely on their CCIE status, and never look at
the Work Experience part of a CCIE's resume, and never ask a CCIE about what
they have done in real, production networks.

Just for the benefit of the sarcasm-challenged, this is SARCASM. SARCASM.

Best regards,
Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Graun" <jgraun@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'Sam Meftahi'" <SAF@xxxxxxxxxx>; "'Richard Dumoulin'"
<richard.dumoulin@xxxxxxxx>; "'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'" <ec2929@xxxxxxx>;
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training

> I am saying we should NOT be taking 5-day lab crash courses.  Taking the
> is like a wine it ages over time and improves, trying to force the lab by
> going to boot camps and being a lab rat only cheapens the lab.  You must
> understand the theory of routing, of MAC-to-IP address mapping, and the
> behind all this to truly set yourself apart.  I would really like to see
> Cisco go to a CISSP style verification on top what they do know.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Meftahi [mailto:SAF@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:32 AM
> To: Richard Dumoulin; Jason Graun; CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI);
> ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> IMHO, the emphasis was on understanding the technology instead of learning
> it(not about taking classes !). There is a slight nuance here.
> When u learn routing, u know how to configure it, but when u understand it
> can bend it back and forward, fine tune it etc..
> This has nothing to do about how u achieve this level.
> But yes, I agree troubleshooting in labs and live network is invaluable.
> Cheers
> Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> Richard Dumoulin
> Sent: 23. March 2004 08:20
> To: Jason Graun; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> Not sure I like your ironical comment. Do u mean we should all be
> a 5-day only course to become experts ?
> In my opinion nothing replaces the day to day troubleshoot/research at
> work/lab,
> Regards
> --Richard
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Jason Graun [mailto:jgraun@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Enviado el: martes, 23 de marzo de 2004 7:27
> Para: 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Asunto: RE: NetMasterClass training
> That is good, finally somebody gets it that you must first understand the
> technology and theory behind it before you can become a real expert.  That
> is a breath of fresh air around here.
> Jason
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:02 PM
> To: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: NetMasterClass training
> I just completed a very intensive 5-day course from NetMasterClass in
> preparation for the CCIE lab, and discovered more about this intriguing
> technology than just trying to obtain the certification. I finally
> the big difference between learning the technology and understanding the
> technology. I'm sure most of us can learn the technology by studying 24x7
> (and eventually pass the lab).  But, understanding the theory and
> applications behind the different protocols and integrating them together
> another story.
> The instructors and staff at NetMasterClass really know how to help build
> this understanding. At first, I was a bit apprehensive in paying for the
> course myself. But after experiencing how much they truly care about
> teaching how the technology works and helping you understand the theory
> its applications (rather than just helping you pass the lab), I now know
> that their NMC2 course goes beyond the CCIE certification. For all the
> engineers who are really serious about this industry (not just for the
> certification), the NetMasterClass training is highly recommended. (and
> I am not affiliated with the company...just a student of this industry who
> wishes to share my experience)
> PS. Thanks to Groupstudy and their CCIE participants for doing a great job
> in helping the rest of us improve our skills.
> Regards,
> Erwin
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