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RE: Your Next Step is CCIE [Cisco feeling the burn] posted 03/02/2004
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I already have that cert.  :)  Although, there are still arguments were
inter-as bgp is very useful from both a unicast standpoint and more so when
you get to the mpls vpn idea.  But that's WAY outside the viewpoint of this
topic!

:) 

-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Curtis Phillips
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:12 PM
To: Howard C. Berkowitz; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Your Next Step is CCIE [Cisco feeling the burn]

LOL.. I was just thinking the way the fragment from Howard's response was
worded.. " I'd make the minor plea that AFAIK, the Service Provider exam "
will have Scott scurrying off to see if he oughtn't get that cert too.. 

:-)  


At 11:28 AM -0500 3/2/04, Scott Morris wrote:
>That is an interesting viewpoint...  And it goes back to basic economic 
>principles.
>
>1.  I've been a CCIE for about 5 years now, and when I started with it, 
>there were no bootcamps or help material.
>2.  I run bootcamps and train people, and don't believe that the 
>sub-standard folks pass the lab.  There is a LOT of material now in so 
>many different directions, just as there was before.  But we live in a 
>more compressed timeframe that many did before.
>3.  I also do a lot of consulting gigs.  Interestingly enough, the more 
>warped and complex itterations of things I have done in a  lab.  When 
>you boil it all down, real-life is pretty straight-forward.
> Because we take all
>of the shortcuts and things to make our lives easier in design 
>scenarios so that we DON'T have the inherent evil things that are part 
>of the CCIE lab.
>However, the lab forces people to know technologies (whether they 
>believe it or not!)

Very much agree. I'd make the minor plea that AFAIK, the Service Provider
exam emphasizes things that competent ISPs rarely use in practice (like
IGP-BGP redistribution), but doesn't touch things that are needed for larger
SP operation. In fairness, Cisco does have quite a bit published on just
those larger SP techniques, but the ISP industry doesn't generally think
much of Cisco certs as relevant to what they do, at least above the help
desk level.

There's a mild flamewar going on now on the NANOG list, where someone
suggested that a very respected member of the global Internet routing
community was clueless because he didn't have M$ or Cisco certs. IIRC, the
complaining newbie was a MCSA/CCNA.

>
>The basic economics come in in that yes, there will be some people who 
>pass the lab who shouldn't.  This isn't anything new though.
> Way back when,
>larger companies would send one person to fail the lab (but remember 
>the
>questions) and many people after that to learn it quickly and go and 
>pass.
>Is this any different?  There is always a chance that people get lucky.
>Does it matter?
>
>In the grand scheme of things no matter what you look at, you have some 
>good and some bad.  There are bad doctors out there, although I don't 
>see any decrease in the need for their services all in all.
> Economics will make the
>bad ones go away (or move into management?  :)  )  I can't say that I 
>haven't run into CCIEs that are less than bright out in the field. But 
>this is not a new problem.  You'll also notice that about 10% of R&S 
>CCIE's are no longer certified.  Perhaps these are the culling of those 
>who can't figure out how to recertify.

I have to suggest, from direct knowledge, that a reasonable number of
"expired" CCIEs are already in jobs, perhaps that the CCIE helped them get,
but where they now have actual experience on their resumes that a
recertification just won't match.

>
>Having the CCIE number in and of itself is not an automatic ticket.  
>You still need to figure out how to differentiate yourself from others.  
>If it's you and 15 other people with lab-only experience, you need to 
>decide how to market that part.  However, as a "back-atchya" argument, 
>it doesn't automatically mean that you are a better choice than any of 
>the new people!
>
>Are we having fun yet?
>
>
>Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service
>Provider) #4713, CISSP,
>JNCIS, et al.
>IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
>IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>swm@xxxxxxxxxx/smorris@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>http://www.ipexpert.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>jgraun@xxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:53 AM
>To: Curtis Phillips
>Cc: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Your Next Step is CCIE [Cisco feeling the burn]
>
>I have to disagree with you all, I been a CCIE for awhile now, it is 
>getting out of hand you have all these CCIE bootcamps that are 
>producing sub-standard people that have never been in the field before 
>and have no real experince with networks if it isnt on the lab exam.
> How does it sound
>for somebody to be on an interview and they keep saying "well in the 
>lab I have..." It is bullshit
>>  I tend to agree with Howard's assessment. I also think Roger is dead
>>  on. As long as the CCIE lab is what it is, it generally makes 
>>experts
>>  out of the people pursuing it, regardless of what they tend to think
>>  starting out.
>>
>>  As for Cisco's motivations.. they could be many.. But generally,
>>  CCIE-level people tend to be a strong influence in decision making 
>>and
>>  recommendations for pruducts used in designs. People tend to 
>>recommend
>>  what they know and what they know works. It makes perfect sense that
>>  promoting CCIE is in line with Cisco's future business interests.
>>
>>
>>
>>  At 8:58 AM -0500 3/2/04, McNeace, Roger wrote:
>>  >Obiviuosly you guys have never actually taken the lab exam.  I see
>>  >nothing wrong with Cisco promoting thier product and encouraging
>>  >people to pursue the CCIE.  Only 3% of Cisco Certified peolple
>>  >actually obtain the CCIE level.  It took me three years to get my
>>  >number and I never saw a braindump on the Internet for the lab 
>>exam.
>>  >It
>
>>  >still takes extreme dedication, time and lots of $$$ to get the 
>>CCIE.
>>  >Anyone who gets thier number deserves it,  the sky is not falling.
>>  >
>>  >Ciena Corporation
>>  >Roger McNeace, CCIE  #12777
>>  >Senior Network Engineer
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-----Original Message-----
>>  >From: Jason Graun [mailto:jgraun@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>>  >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:20 AM
>>  >To: ihatecisco@xxxxxxx; ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>  >Subject: RE: Your Next Step is CCIE [Cisco feeling the burn]
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >This is such bullshit, if Cisco isn't careful the CCIE
>>  >will become like the
>>  >MCSE (Must Call Someone Else) CCIE (Cisco Certifies Idiots
>>  >Everyday).  The
>>  >CCIE should not be seen as a revenue generating part of
>>  >Cisco.  But
>>  >hopefully Cisco stops the insanity or there will be
>>  >nothing sacred and holy
>>  >left.
>>
>>
>>  I really have to question this. My suspicion is that you
>>  are seeing an effort by the certification/training people
>>  to look good, but this sort of appeal isn't even in the
>>  scope of a John Chambers.
>>
>
>>    From Cisco's strategic business standpoint, the only  reason to 
>> have  training, documentation, certification and support is to  sell 
>> networking products. There are far better profit  margins on a router 
>> than there is in certification.
>>
>>  Some years ago, training and associated things were simply
>>  seen as overhead, and they were measured in customer
>>  satisfaction rather than dollars.  I can't look into the
>>  minds of the present managers, but at one point, the
>>  managers shifted to people that wanted training and
>>  associated things to be a profit center.It might be, at
>>  the level of their immediate VP, but certification simply
>>  is never going to be a major part of Cisco's revenue.
>>
>>  Another possible explanation is that Cisco sees
>>  partner/reseller support slipping and more work coming
>>  back to the TAC. It is to Cisco's advantage to outsource
>>  support to resellers, and certification, by and large, is
>>  the main tool they have to assess reseller competence to
>>  do support.
>>
>
>>  >-----Original Message-----
>>  >From: nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>  >On Behalf Of
>>  >ihatecisco@xxxxxxx
>>  >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:19 AM
>>  >To: ccielab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>  >Subject: FW: Your Next Step is CCIE [Cisco feeling the
>>  >burn]
>>  >
>>  >Looks like the certification value slide is starting to
>>  >begin.  Cisco trying
>>  >to get more people to start on the long road to CCIE.
>>  >
>>  >I will let anyone know if i find any coupons in this
>>  >weekends paper.
>>  >
>>  >-----Original Message-----
>>  >From: ccie-promo@xxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:ccie-promo@xxxxxxxxx]
>>  >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 11:54 PM
>>  >To: [ME]
>>  >Subject: Your Next Step is CCIE
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Dear CCNP,
>>  >
>>  >With the economy poised for recovery, now is the time to
>>  >strengthen your
>>  >personal qualifications. Obtaining your CCIE.
>>  >certification can provide you
>  > >with the edge you need to move your career to the next
>  > >level.
>>  >
>>  >   a.. Studying for the exams expands your technical
>>  >knowledge.
>
>>  >   b.. Passing the lab gives you personal satisfaction.
>>  >   c.. Displaying your official CCIE number earns you 
>>the
>>  >respect and
>>  >admiration of colleagues and employers.
>>  >Obtaining your CCNP was an important step in your career.
>>  >Taking the next
>>  >step-earning your CCIE-will differentiate you, and
>>  >establish your mastery of
>>  >complex technology. Commit yourself to achieving CCIE
>>  >certification this
>>  >year.
>>  >Schedule your written exam now and enter a drawing for
>>  >free CCIE self-study
>>  >materials from Cisco Press. Preparation is key to success
>>  >on the lab exam,
>>  >and
>>  >self-study with Cisco equipment is the most important
>>  >factor. CCIE Practical
>>  >Studies, a two-volume set from Cisco Press (a $150 value),
>>  >is designed to
>>  >help
>>  >CCIE candidates prepare for the hands-on lab exam and
>>  >supplies lab scenarios
>>  >for effective self-study.
>>  >
>>  >To qualify for the drawing, you must be a CCNP in good
>>  >standing and register
>>  >and take a CCIE written exam (any track) before June 30,
>
>>  >2004. A passing
>>  >score
>>  >is not necessary to qualify. One two-volume set will be
>>  >awarded to a
>>  >qualified
>>  >CCNP each month. Those not chosen will remain in the pool
>>  >for drawings in
>>  >subsequent months. Books will be shipped to winners after
>>  >verification that
>>  >exam is complete. Cisco employees are not eligible for
>>  >this offer.
>>  >
>>  >Need more?
>>  >
>>  >* CCIE was the most lucrative professional credential in
>>  >2003, according to
>>  >Certification Magazine's annual survey of over 19,000 IT
>>  >professionals.
>>  >
>>  >* CCIE was voted the #2 Hottest Exam for 2004 (#1 in
>>2003)
>>  >by the readers of
>>  >CertCities.com
>>  >
>>  >* CCIE was named "Most Technically Advanced Certification"
>>  >and "Best
>>  >Hands-On
>>  >Program" by Certification Magazine.
>>  >
>>  >Visit the CCIE website now for more information on the
>>  >CCIE tracks--Routing
>>  >&
>>  >Switching, Security, Service Provider and Voice, and to
>>  >schedule your exam.
>>  >Details for entering the drawing are also available on the
>>  >website at
>>  >Special
>>  >Offer for CCNPs.
>
>>  >
>>  >Mike Reid
>>  >CCIE Program Manager
>>  >Cisco Systems, Inc.
>>  >
>>  
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